Tony:
> > but are you saying that the ZX80/81 was "much less significant?" Perhaps I
> > misunderstand.
> Let me explain.
> The PERQ is very closely related to the Xerox D-machines. In fact if you
> compare the PERQ CPU board with the Daybreak CPU board you can find
> similarities in the logic. The I/O structure is similar. So is the
> (native) filesystem. Etc. And thus it's related to the Alto.
> Thus we have :
> Alto----+----->D machines ----> Apple Lisa ----> Macintosh ----> MS Windows
> | | Close similarities
> +-----> PERQ
> I don't want to imply a direct technical link here. But it's clear that the
> Macintosh was influenced by the Lisa. And that Windows was influenced by
> the Macintosh.
Objections!
IMHO Windows was _not_ influenced by the mac - at least not
at all before 3.x, and not heavyly before 9x. Let me explain:
If you remember Windows 1.x it is clear to everyone that
this is just a Sidekick clone with a nice user gimmick
called MS-Mouse (and as single new feature a way to invoke
programms in a sub shell - but thats more related to the
implementation strategy). Ad the mouse is, by any means,
not a genuine idea of the D-Machines. I belive at MS (at
least within the management) they had recogniced the mouse,
but no idea what to dy, other than it may sell well and
add a new 'we are top techie' flavour to them. Only with
the growing success of GEM, a true MacOS/Finder clone,
they tealized they would need something alike to regain
their place behind the wheel. Now the 3.0 was born (and
the successfull bug fix version of 3.1 - If you buy a
Microsoft product, always look for the x.1 version, never
ever buy the the x.0 :). This was a pure reaction to the
GEM success - no (direct) Mac influence at all (After all,
Apple had excluded themself from the race with insisting
in beeing a hardware company, and not a software company).
The picture might look like:
The Mouse ------------------------------;
| SideKick -'-> Windows 1.x/2.x -;-> MS Win 3.x -;-> MS Win 9x
| ,-> GEM -' |
Alto -+-> D machines -> Apple Lisa -> Original Mac -'----------> MacOS >7.0 -'-> ...
| | Close similarities
+-> PERQ
That's the way of influence as far as I can see it.
(And for the Win 1.x/2.x thing, belive me - I had
to do Win2.x, GEM and Mac development in the 80s)
> For better or worse, the GUI (in particular MS Windows) has a major
> influence on today's computing. More so than (IMHO) the influence of
> cheap home computers. In other words, had the ZX80, etc never existed
> (but keeping the IBM PC etc), then computing today wouldn't be that
> different. Had the PERQ/Dmachines, etc never existed, then things would
> most likely have been somewhat different.
You may be right on the 'theoretical' part, the way of UI evolution
and development, but for the Computer as an accepted tool, and as
an every days thingy, for the evolution of the _user_, and of course
for the development of the computer industrie, I belive the ZX 80/81/
Spectrum machines (and the C64 after 1985) had more importance than
anything else. Where the D-Machines did employ some people at a few
big companies, some few developers, and only a few users ever had
contact, the cheap charly computers lauched thousends of small hard-
ware-add-on-companies, computer shops, ten thousends of developers,
and millions of beople, who could own a computer for the first time,
see that it's just a pice of plastic, with no 'holy' aura of truth
or whatever - just a tool. And this only in Europ - now add half
the east, from DDR until Sibiria, where these computers did support
the ideas of uncounted hobbyists as self made clones (there has been
an 'official' brochure in the DDR, exactly explaning how to build
your own ZX Spectrum clone from scratch - only called 'industrie
standard home computer' in this case :)
And don't forget all these Taiwan based (and often Japan owned)
companies that did build ZX clones - And don't underestimate the
impact in other, oftern third world, countries, where they had
an impact, not known over here - just remember this bunch of
systems in Brasil
> > Millions of people worldwide were introduced to computers by these machines
> > (and their Timex cousins). Because of the low price, people bought them to
> Are you suggesting that if there hadn't been cheap home computers, then
> there wouldn't have been IBM PCs? I am not sure I can agree with that.
No, me'n either, but maybe the impact of the PC had been different -
these computers did pave the road to use other systems more willingly
not just by order of ones boss.
> > see if they "liked computing" -- if not, they could throw them away and only
> > be out $100 or so.
> Sure. I am not saying that the ZX80 had no effect at all. The ZX80 does
> have historical significance, and it is worth collecting (well, I can
> understand why people collect them...). However, I am not convinced that
> it has 10 times the importance of the PERQ. And yet I see the (much more
> common) ZX81 selling for \pounds 50, and the ZX80 selling for \pounds
> 200. I've never heard of a PERQ sell for anything like that figure.
Not sure if there is any way to judge any multiplyer of
importance between machines at all, and yes, the impact
for at the 'high tech development foremost frontier' is
small (althrough, with the ZX 81, a proof of integration
concepts was made), but thats not the only way a computer
has importance - Computers don't only exist for themself,
they are part of our culture, and when looking across the
pure technological borderline, the ZXes could have a stand
on their own.
> The other point is that the PERQ had features which a lot of people don't
> believe existed in 1980. Things like a high-resolution bitmapped display.
> Like a pointing device.
Open gates - I still belive that the ViewPoint System is the _best_
system at all - instead of adding these stupid window keys, MS should
have added the four buttons !
Anyway
Servus
Hans
P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :)
P.P.S.: and speaking of _great_ ideas without big impact (beside
technology) - I'm still looking for a well maintained,
but cheap C-5
--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch
Received on Thu Jul 01 1999 - 15:54:52 BST