languages

From: Richard Erlacher <edick_at_idcomm.com>
Date: Thu Mar 9 12:37:08 2000

please see embedded comments below.

Dick

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland <jim_at_calico.litterbox.com>
To: classiccmp_at_classiccmp.org <classiccmp_at_classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: languages


>*snip*
>
>> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the
tools
>> that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and
structure
>> in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing,
>> which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no
point
>> of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or
an
>> infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle
and
>> a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the
>> teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages
>> all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't
make
>> reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to
go
>> in order to teach those same characteristics in another language.
>>
>> It's a sad situation.
>>
>> Dick
>
>I agree with the fundamental premise of this post, but I have to disagree
with
>the example of grammar. See, classical grammer, what most of us DID learn
in
>high school, was actually lifted from latin grammar. It never fit English
very
>well. In the last 20 years or so there have arisen new systems of grammar
>which understand a word order language like English far better than Latin
>grammar, which was designed for a word-ending language where word order is
>irrelevant, ever could. Of course, THESE grammars are not well taught
either,
>but the fact that a modern high school student doesn't know gerunds and
present
>participles may well be because that whole system of grammar is no longer
>taught. It never was that useful to begin with.
>
First of all, you must consider that, unlike French and Spanish, English is
not a Latin-derived language, but rather a Germaic language. It's true that
English is a language that has developed over the centuries into one which
does allow word order to effect sentence meaning, unlike most other modern
languages. However, having seen MANY sentences written by college graduates
to be lacking in subject or verb, or grossly misusing predicate nominatives
or adjectives, I have to say that the BASIC STRUCTURE that was taught by
simple tools like sentence diagrams (remember them?) tended to teach people
who were taught that structure to write complete sentences. Along the way,
it was taught that one shouldn't split infinitives, end sentences with
prepositions, and so on. The lack of that basic structure is "out there"
in the newspapers, magazines and, even worse, in the common speech
observable in radio and television programs every day.

I have to disagree with the notion that it's not important to know whether a
word is a gerund or a participle. Knowing that they exist means knowing
that there's a difference, hence, serves as an aid in using them correctly.
>
>Jim Strickland
>jim_at_DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
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Received on Thu Mar 09 2000 - 12:37:08 GMT