see below, plz.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerome Fine" <jhfine_at_idirect.com>
To: <classiccmp_at_classiccmp.org>; "Richard Erlacher" <edick_at_idcomm.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Adaptec 1502 - SCSI Hard Drive Question
> >Richard Erlacher wrote:
>
> > >From: "Jerome Fine" <jhfine_at_idirect.com>
> > >To: <classiccmp_at_classiccmp.org>
> > >Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:13 PM
> > >Subject: Adaptec 1502 - SCSI Hard Drive Question
> > > Much as I hate to admit I am using W95 on a Pentium 166 MMX, it
> > > is really to run E11 and run RT-11.
> > > Included, I have an Iomega SCSI Insider (100 MByte Zip drive) which
> > > came with a (wonder of wonders) Adaptec 1502 SCSI host adapter
> > > (at least I think that was the Adaptec number - it is inside the guts of
> > > the motherboard and I can pull it to check if absolutely necessary).
> > The first thing I'd suspect as a source of trouble is the IOMEGA product.
I
> > have one or more of nearly every IOMEGA removable media drive that they
ever
> > produced, and not a single one has ever worked as advertised.
>
> Jerome Fine replies:
>
> Well, I am not saying that the files I received with the Iomega Zip drive
> don't work with that drive - in actual fact over the last 3 years they have
> worked extremely well in the W95 environment I use them with. In
> particular, with the Zip drive, I can access all three RT-11 partitions
> under E11, but on an actual real PDP-11 with a CQD 220/TM, for
> some reason, I can see only the first two. This is no longer a problem
> since I now also have the Sony drives on both the PC and the PDP-11.
> Since each MO disk has 8.75 RT-11 partitions on each side (that both
> the PC and the PDP-11 can see at all times - although the write speed
> of the MO disks is a bit slow), I use the MO when I want to transfer
> anything.
>
That's what's troubled me all along. The IOMEGA attempt at software has often
worked ... sort-of ... but also left holes which they never seem to endeavor
to fill. The 1502, BTW, is normally associated with low-performance devices,
e.g. scanners, which don't demand terribly fast transfer rates for optimal
operation. I'd suggest you try a faster adapter. You may find it works a lot
better.
>
> However, based on your appraisal of Iomega software, I would, at
> the very least say that the Iomega programs are able to handle ONLY
> what they are designed for and very little more. So it is very pleasing
> that the Iomega device drivers and other stuff can even handle the
> Sony SMO S-501 drives correctly. The fact that I must fool the
> Iomega programs to see the SCSI hard drives is, I guess, fortunate
> to say the least. BUT, at least I have found it can be done.
>
Back in '90 or so when we finally got the couple of dozen '501's we had
working such that all the drives would read one another's writing, etc, and
the performance was reasonable by the performance standards of the day, which
were not what we expect these days, BTW, it was with ISA-based 8-bit SCSI
controllers that they topped out. We had none of the "high-performance"
adapters, e.g. AHA 1542 available for experiments such as that. I suspect
they're capable of pretty good performance with the latest drive firmware and
a modern adapter.
>
> By the way, if you are able to read this whole reply, I will sprinkle
> my actual questions all the way through. Normally, I run with the
> Zip drive off (99% of the time - I just hardly use it any more and
> if when I migrate to the new PC I must leave it behind, I will only
> have to transfer about a dozen Zip 100 MByte disks to the Sony
> MO disks to carry everything along - but it would be nice to have
> the Zip for the ability to share files with others who still have that
> media with RT-11 software - probably less than 5 people).
>
> The Sony drives are OFF 90% of the time and ON only when they
> are being used - at boot time naturally and when I want to save
> files from a RAM disk, i.e. when I run RT-11 under E11, I can
> MOUNT DU2: SCSI2:
> to bring on-line for E11 (and RT-11) the Sony drive at SCSI2:,
> but I can also
> MOUNT DU7: RAM:/SIZE:33554432
> which is where I work from all of the time, i.e. I run E11 with the
> Sony drives OFF and only turn them ON about once every 2 hours
> when I have a newer version of the program that I want to save.
>
Under WIndows, that sort of operation is perfectly reasonable, and, in
general, thats what I'd expect to do under any circumstances with SCSI
removable-media drives. IOMEGA, however, in their infinite "wisdom" uses that
SCSICFG program (or whatever it's called) that leaves a file behind that
characterizes the SCSI subsystem as it was when the utility was run. If you
change the configuration, i.e, if you turn off a device so it can't identify
itself, the IOMEGA software won't like that and often completely refuses to
boot. That doesn't mean the system won't boot, but it won't have that SCSI
chain on it.
>
> QUESTION: In your opinion, which does less damage - turning
> the Sony drives on for 5 minutes every two hours or leaving them
> on all of the time while I am working on RT-11 for an average of
> 6 hours for each RT-11 session? i.e. leave the Sony drives ON
> for about 6 hours or turn them on 4 times for 5 minutes each when
> they are actually being used?
>
There's debate about that, but under RT-11 you don't have the risk that some
Windows feature will P*SS on some part of your platter. There's still debate
about whether it's riskier to power a subsystem up and down as needed, as
opposed to leaving it "on" all the time. However, I prefer the former, simply
because the SCSI is inteded to be used that way.
>
> Anyone else have an opinion on how an external drive with its
> own power supply is best used - keep it on for 6 hours or only
> on for 4 sessions of 5 minutes each?
>
> > BTW, if you're booting from the SCSI chain, the controller is absolutely
not
> > an AHA 1510, since that's a ROM-less version.
>
> Apology - my son #3 just returned his borrowed version of the host
> adapter (I only needed one of the two I had) and it is a 1502 - specifically
> AVA 1502 | SB (there was a vertical bar after the two - not a one)
> 984700 D
> 9745
> with a serial number of
> BG0C7452C0H Made in Singapore
>
> By the way, I have "fixed" all the other incorrect references to 1510 and
> changed them to 1502 except in this section.
>
> > > Now, wonder of wonders, not only does the 1502 and the Iomega
> > > APSI device drivers support the Zip drive, but I can also connect
> > > the Sony SMO S-501 as well. In fact, at one point, I had 3 of the
> > > Sony magneto optical drives (SCSI ID 0,1,2 and the Zip at ID 6)
> > > all running on the 1502 and of course recognizing all four SCSI
> > > units at boot time (along with a C: drive and an IDE CD-ROM
> > > drive) for a total of 8 drives: A: (3.5" floppy) B: (5 1/4" floppy)
> > > C:, D:, E:, F:, G: (Zip) and H: (CD-ROM).
> > > About half the time I boot without the Sony drives and the ZIP drive
> > > and the Iomega device driver complains there are no SCSI IDs, and
> > > I just press any character to continue.
> > You may find you have better luck with the ADAPTEC drivers rather than the
> > IOMEGA verson. I have used both ZIP and JAZ drives with IOMEGA's drivers,
and
> > they've never worked satisfactorily.
>
> OK - now can you e-mail me the ADAPTEC drivers that I should be using?
> No support obligations on your part - I will first try them with a backup
> ESDI hard drive and see if I can still do everything I can do now with the
> Zip drive, but still be able to use the SCSI hard drives without first
having
> to have either the Sony or the SCSI drives powered on when I boot W95.
>
> I currently have the Adaptec host adapters:
> AHA-2940AU
> 984300-01 B
> 9706
> which I presume is an ISA and
> AHA-1535A
> 947000-01 C
> 9637
> which I presume is PCI
>
These are both excellent adapters, but I prefer the AHA2940AU, though I've had
some lifetime and support issues with them. They seem to work about as well
as any adapter I've ever used, and the Windows plug-n-play stuff works quite
well with it.
>
> I just realized that perhaps even the original 1502 may also be OK, but
> the only problem is the Iomega device drivers. So if it is best that I
> continue with the 1502, that will be OK since the new motherboard
> for the Pentium III 800 has ISA and PCI slots.
>
That's where I'd look for the problem. If you use the ADAPTEC low-level
driver (ASPInDOS.SYS) for DOS or sparrow.mpd as installed by WIndows, you
should have no trouble with the IOMEGA interface. Unfortunately, if you don't
use their mid-level driver, SCSIDRVR.SYS (??? that's what it was, IIRC, when I
started using my JAZ drive) you can't use their utilities either but that
shouldn't be a problem until you need to tweak some feature on the IOMEGA
drive.
>
> But if I can't boot a SCSI drive with the 1502 and I can do so with
> either the 2940AU or the 1535A, that would probably be a valuable
> addition in return for not being able to use the Zip drive - or at the
> very least not being able to easily WRITE PROTECT the media as
> I can do now - just right click on the Zip drive in Explorer and select
> the correct item in the menu.
>
If you can use the AHA2940, it should give you no trouble with Windows. I
can't vouch for it under the DEC OS emulator.
>
> > > On occasion, I want to use a SCSI hard drive (currently I have both
> > > a ST11200N and a ST32550N) instead of the Sony drives (I hardly
> > > ever use the Zip drive - it is normally cabled to the 50-pin cable but
> > > not powered on). When that happens, i.e. want to use the Seagate
> > > drives, I find it necessary to FIRST boot W95 with the Sony drive
> > > powered on at the same SCSI ID I will be using for the Seagate
> > > drive. Then I power down all the Sony drives, disconnect them ALL
> > > from the end of the cable (a 50 pin external centronics connector
> > > since the Sony drives are external boxes) and power up (sometimes
> > > all three) the Seagate drives, i.e. I can't seem to keep both the
> > > Seagate drives and the Sony drives powered up on the SCSI cable
> > > at the same time.
>
> > Now, how many devices? At which addresses? It doesn't matter, of course,
> > which addresses you use, unless you want to boot from one of these
devices.
> > If it's to be a bootable drive, it will have to be at ID=0 or ID=1.
>
> A bootable drive would be great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But how would I boot?
>
> I normally run the Zip at SCSI ID=6 and would never boot from it in
> any case. The three Sony drives are run at SCSI ID=0,1,2
> I see on the 1502 there is a J21 with 5 pairs of jumpers - I have no
> idea how mine is set. On the 2940, I can't see any way to set up
> the CSR address. On the 1535A, I see an S1 with 4 dip switches.
>
Your adapter should be at ID=7. This is the convention with either narrow or
WIDE SCSI channels. I'd put no drives at ID=0 or ID=1 unless you're
considering them for boot. You can, of course, assuming you've got the
AHA2940 in place, configure the card so it doesn't attempt to boot from any
device, and you can probably also tell the motherboard BIOS to disable SCSI
boot. If you want to boot from the SCSI, which I'd certainly consider as an
alternative to running Windows all the time, you might want to put a power
switch on the default boot drive and set the boot polling order such that it
looks for the EIDE drive and, if it's unavailable, uses the SCSI to boot.
That way you can boot from whatever OS you select on your bootable SCSI drive.
I've used removable drives in trays for a number ofyears now, and can't
imagine not having them. I even modified a tray so I can put my JAZ drive in
a slot in the box, thereby allowing me to boot whatever OS is on the platter I
insert, if I first disable the EIDE drive, which is trivial if I simply turn
off the power to it. (The frame has a keyswitch that disables power to the
drive). Because it's in a tray, I can pop out the JAZ drive and put in a
different SCSI drive. The drive ID is assigned by the frame, so whichever
drive is in the tray gets that ID. You can selectively configure your system
by putting different OS' on different platters and putting them in the
bootable drive, if you have one configured for boot.
>
> I find the throughput on the 1502 quite satisfactory. When I use the
> ST 32550N SCSI hard drive, I can read or write a 32 MByte RT-11
> partition in about 30 seconds or less as compared with the same
> 32 MBytes on the Sony and taking about 250 seconds to read and
> about 500 seconds to write. But since I do all 32 MBytes rarely,
> I don't consider it a problem. Most of the time, I am writing only
> the source and listing files at one time - less than 1 MByte total.
> So a few seconds one way or the other does not matter.
>
You may be pleased to find that the operation is faster with the AHA2940AU.
>
> > > In addition, if I boot W95 with just the Seagate drives powered on,
> > > they are not even recognized at all - actually not quite true. Although
> > > W95 and the device drivers from Iomega will not allow these Seagate
> > > SCSI hard drives, the are "partially" recognized by E11 to the point
> > > that I can "MOUNT" them under E11, but I can't really access them
> > > properly. It looks as if the Iomega supplied device drivers will not
> > > recognize a fixed (i.e. non-removable media hard drive).
>
> > This is likely an artifact of the IOMEGA approach to SCSI system
> > configuration. The IOMEGA driver requires you have a previously defined
> > configuration in the SCSI.SCF file (or whatever that thing is called) and
any
> > change in the configuration "breaks" the operability of the entire chain.
The
> > ADAPTEC driver will work better in that respect, since it doesn't require
a
> > previously defined configruation. Under W95, you just go to
device-manager
> > and "refresh" the SCSI adapter, after which the newly powered-on devices
will
> > suddenly appear in the "my computer" window.
>
> This would be IDEAL!!!!!!! Right now, I must boot with every SCSI ID
> that I will want to use powered on as a removable drive. Will that also
work
> with W98? When I switch to the Pentium III 800, I will almost certainly
> switch to W98 and Netscape 4.78, but dump everything else I have including
> the games that my granddaughter used to play with when she was 3 years old
> and no longer uses now that she is 6 years old. I may want to have better
> sound software that can use MP3 stuff, but that is not a priority. Usually
I
> find I can't concentrate well enough if the sound is too loud in the
background.
>
Because I have several machines, all equipped with the cheapie ~$15 frame/tray
arrangements, I can put the IOMEGA drives into a system that is running DOS
and Win3.11. There I have pretty good control over what the IOMEGA drivers
run off and do. I load the low-level driver (ASPInDOS.SYS) from ADAPTEC, the
mid-level driver from IOMEGA (SCSIDRVR.SYS) and run SCSICFG.EXE in the
AUTOEXEC.BAT (as the default, set up by their install software ... an awkward
step, BTW, that doesn't always work). And that allows me to use their
SCSIUTIL program to format, etc, the platters.
>
> > > I would prefer to not use W95, but that is all I have to use when I post
> > > to classiccmp and use email and the internet.
>
> > You'll have better luck if you purge all IOMEGA software from your system.
> > I've found that IOMEGA drives work better with the ADAPTEC drivers, though
you
> > can't perform any low-level functions, such as low-level format, on them
> > unless you use the IOMEGA setup. You might find that it works most easily
if
> > you boot a version of DOS that you've set up to support the IOMEGA tools
> > whenever you want to perform those functions.
>
> As I have said, I now rarely use the Iomega Zip drive, but the one thing
that
> would be "Nice" to retain is the ability to WRITE PROTECT the media
> which right now I can do ONLY on the PC. When I do that, RT-11 on
> the real PDP-11 can no longer WRITE to that media - which is a "Nice"
> feature, but not really very useful or important since I don't use the Zip
drive
> enough to justify all that bother for that one feature. I would just
> UNPROTECT all the Zip media I have right now (only about 10 at the most)
> and transfer everything to the Sony media just in case.
>
I've completely given up on ZIP drives and use LS120's (significantly slower,
but I still can use the first one I ever got, while the IOMEGA ZIPs have died
8-9 times) which also serve as a standard floppy drive.
>
> > > Plus, I really use the PC to run RT-11 on the PC, so please don't
suggest
> > > getting a MAC or running Linux or some equally reasonable answer since
> > > I like having the system right now with RT-11 and the Zip and Sony
drives
> > > and I can put up with the problem of having to boot with Sony drives if
I
> > > have to.
>
I don't even know enough about MAC's to be dangerous, so that's not likely ...
>
> > > So, it sounds like a termination problem on the SCSI bus. But
> > > the ST11200N is definitely terminated from the drive. I checked at:
> > > http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/scsi/st11200n.html
> > > and J2 has both the Parity and Terminator jumpers. But when even just
> > > one ST11200N drive is cabled on and powered on by itself, booting W95
> > > does not recognize the ST11200N, but having the Sony drive there first
> > > does the job as stated above.
>
My external JAZ drive (I have one external, and one tray-mounted internal
drive.) is in a package VERY similar to what I've seen on external ZIP drives.
It has a termination switch on the back. That should be all the termination
you need, provided the ZIP is the LAST drive in the physical chain. The
address, BTW, doesn't matter, so long as it's unique on that SCSI chain.
>
> > > So I am starting to think the problem is more likely the device drivers.
> > You'll find that out if you try the ADAPTEC drivers and leave the ZIP
drive
> > off the chain for the moment.
>
> That seems like a good suggestion. Can you e-mail me the Adaptec driver
> for the 1502 host adapter I am using? Plus a few helpful hints? Please
> realize I am a PC dummy - I just don't want to spend the time to learn
> Windows. I am 63 now and I know RT-11 very well, but that is where
> I want to spend my time. So I will likely continue to use the PC only for
> e-mail (internet access in general) and especially to run RT-11 under the
> E11 emulator.
>
If you don' thave the ADAPTEC drivers for DOS, I'll happily send 'em to you.
You won't need 'em under Windows, though, and I doubt they'll be of much use
under that RT-11 emulator unless it runs under DOS.
>
> > > Could the 1502 and the Adaptec device drivers just not recognize an
> > > ST11200N (or any other SCSI hard drive that is not removable), but
> > > be fooled once booted with the Sony drive which has a removable media?
> > I've found the 1510/152x controllers work about as well as SCSI adapters
can
> > be expected to work, and with a WIDE range of devices. I used the SONY MO
> > drives with them for some time, until they became too valuable to keep.
>
> Skip the following if you are not interested in what I did 10 years ago!
>
> Right now I have the Sony SMO S-501 drives which are the original that
> Sony released about ten years ago. In fact, that is how I started. At the
> time, a customer NEEDED a better way of backup for his RX02 8" floppy
> disks. There were about 1500 floppies using an RL02 as the backup -
> 20 * 8" floppies of 1/2 Mbyte each on a 10 Mbyte RL02 for a total of
> about 75 RL02 disks - or about 3 very large cabinets. Since there were
> 5 natural groups of about 15 RL02 disk packs each, the Sony media with
> 295 MBytes per side or about 8.75 RT-11 partitions was VERY sufficient
> to hold those 15 * RL02 disks worth of files on 5 RT-11 partitions.
>
> This 5 sides of media on 3 disks was then sufficient to hold the same
> information as 75 RL02 disks. And then there was the REQUIREMENT
> for 2 off-site backups. Originally, the 75 RL02 disks each had two tape
> backups off-site. Or about two more cabinets of storage. Now, all NINE
> MO media (one primary copy and 2 backup copies) were the total size
> of a loaf of bread and could be held in one small box less than the total
> volume of one RL02 disk.
>
> Eventually, ONE partition was needed for a VMS directory structure
> when a VMS/VAX system was also required to be able to share the
> backup. That hard part in that case was to generated (very carefully)
> a file structure in VMS in the first 32 MBytes of the MO media (RT-11
> partition zero) seven contiguous VMS files which exactly overlaid
> each of the other RT-11 partitions - not difficult in principle, but
> impossible in practise since VMS does NOT allow the user to
> specify where files are placed. I set up an RT-11 system right beside
> the VMS/VAX system with its own Sony drive. By fooling VMS
> (in RT-11 I can easily look at any block on the media and I simply
> found out where the VMS free block list was located - and zeroed
> out all the blocks except one 65536 block set that were at the same
> location as an RT-11 partition - actually it was not simple and the
> whole exercise took 3 days to figure out and do the job), I was able
> to allocate 7 contiguous VMS files which could be MOUNTed in
> Exchange under VMS and provide access, in turn, to each RT-11
> partition. The problem in Exchange in VMS was that if the whole
> 295 MByte media was MOUNTed as a foreign volume, ONLY
> RT-11 partition zero was available - there was NO parameter in
> VMS Exchange to say which RT-11 partition was desired.
>
> I see the drives on eBay and have purchased a few along with more than
> 100 media that were about to be tossed. For RT-11 which still breaks
> everything up into 32 MByte partitions like V3.2 of MS-DOS did, these
> Sony drives and media of 295 MBytes per side (8.75 RT-11 partitions)
> are really ideal. I can backup an ST32550N on just 4 media which is
> probably just about all the RT-11 files I will ever have - well, it might be
> double or even triple that if I count all the duplicates, but definitely not
> ten times.
>
I once believed the SONY '501's were pretty nice drives ... however, things
have changed, and I really like using interchangeable drives in trays on my
SCSI chains. If you have a few, say 3 or 4, identical drives in trays that
allow their swap, and you can freely hot-swap them if you disconnect power (I
mention this only because some of my trays require you to do that to unlock
the tray, while a couple don't.) and I've found that SCSI drives cost
substantially less than the equivalent amount of storage in the form of 1 GB
JAZ media. (I just bought a 9.1 GB drive for $32, and plan to snag a dozen or
so more if they're available at that price.)
>
> > > NOTE: I want to use the ST32550N under both RT-11 as a permanent
> > > and much faster hard drive (the Sony is quite slow) and W95 as a backup
> > > device - I have an option on a bunch of these drives even if I can't
solve
> > > the boot problem - does anyone else want a few as well?
>
> > What do you mean by "W95 as a backup device?" Doesn't RT-11 support
backup?
>
> OK - some more definitions. I now will use about 5 of the ST32550N
> drives to perform a backup of all of the files on my 1.2 GByte ESDI hard
drive
> that I use under W95. A grandfaher/father/son rotation should provide
adequate
> protection if I do that every other day and also leave 2 for the end of
month.
>
Be careful what you call a "backup," particularly under Windows. Whereas, in
some environments, a true copy is an adequate backup, under Windows 9x,
nothing that appears to the operating system as a drive is suitable as backup.
Once Windows recognizes and registers a drive, any virus residing anywhere in
the system will be automatically notified of the presence of a new environment
to contaminate. What's safe is a medium, DVD-R, Tape, etc, that requires an
intermediary program to effect the data transfers under its own control
without the intervention of Windows. Once a drive appears under "My Computer"
you can safely assume it's infected with whatever may infect anyting else in
the system.
>
> The other drives I will begin to use under RT-11 as the primary source
instead
> of having to load from the MO media every time. So gradually (until I get
the
> newer W98 system with the Pentium III 800 and 30 GByte dual IDE drives
> up and running in the next year or two), I will switch to using the ST32550N
> drives as backup in W95 and primary plus backup in RT-11.
>
> Can you use any ST32550N drives? They were originally in an AlphaServer
> as a RAID - about 18 drives in the AlphaServer.
>
I don't even know what ST32550N drives are. The numbering suggests a 3.5"
drive with 2 platters and 550MB capacity. The 'N' seems to suggest narrow
SCSI interface.
If that's correct, I'd suggest you hang onto them and use them in removable
trays (visit www.ucdweb.com) since they're identical. IIRC, the MO drives
were single-sided, though you could use both sides of the media, so you get
only 275MB per side from them, while these will be 10x as fast and about twice
the capacity as well.
>
> > > Question: Can anyone HELP? Does anyone have any experience with the
> > > device drivers from Iomega for their Zip drives? If that is the
problem, then
> > > I am probably stuck since I prefer to keep the Sony and Zip drives over
the
> > > hard drives. Plus if having to re-cable after I boot with a Sony drive
is the
> > > answer, then I can probably live with that for a few more years.
> > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
>
I don't think recabling will be required. You should have a termination at
each end of your cable, however, and the default configuration of your AHA2940
will see to it that the adapter end is properly terminated. If you have both
internal and external drives, they must have a termination at the end away
from the controller, even though they're really on the same chain, with the
controller in the middle. In the position at the "middle" of the SCSI chain,
the controller will not terminate the chain. Be certain that at least one
device on the chain has power to the SCSI terminations (TERMPWR) enabled. You
can safely enable this option on ALL devices, as they should be both fused and
diode isolated from the chain. This means that only one device provides power
until some other device offers up a higher TERMPWR supply.
>
> If anyone else is reading this, perhaps you can add to the discussion.
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> Jerome Fine
>
>
Received on Sat Jan 12 2002 - 19:35:55 GMT