On Tuesday 07 May 2002 09:59, you wrote:
> What I am saying is that linux is based on a system that supported
> primitive user I/O devices like a hard copy TTY
That is *ONE* of the existing interfaces, its also *based*
on text CRT's, and Graphical Interfaces that are Network
Transparent.
It wasn't always that way, but appledos was text, msdos
was text etc, everyone added on a GUI
Adding on the GUI wasn't wrong, but those that removed
the tty did something utterly stupid, all they did was cripple the box
making most of the function it provided impossible.
> and I question that with the power of modern computers.
> A more modern model of user I/O is needed.
That assumes that Unix lacks your so called "modern I/O"
Winblows apps are not network transparent and so
are not "modern"
> Don't say that X windows is a good model under linux because
> it is bloated
You can run X on a sun IPX and other lowly machines.
last time i checked ..
http://www.ltsp.org
here they are using obsolete 486 boxes and such as diskless
graphic terminals and hanging up to 200 of them off a single
modern PC where all software executes.
standard Unix GUI apps are all network transparent,
so the ability for 400 programs running on a host PC
to be displayed and used on 200 terminals is built in
to X11 as one of its basic original design elements,
not some kludge added later.
Bloated ? win2k needs 64megs to run the install
program, thats bloated,,, linux with X will run on a 486
w 16m quite happily
just choose a lighter desktop program like blackbox
here is a list of desktop programs, called window managers
they are for the most part application and Unix flavor
agnostic and interchangeable
guide to window managers and desktop environments
http://www.plig.org/xwinman
Two more lists ..
http://linux.about.com/cs/windowmanagers/index_2.htm
http://linux.tucows.com/system/desktop_managers.html
> and you can't get a X-windows terminal as open source.
We have the source to X11, where did you hear this garbage ?
http://www.ltsp.org is all about using old underpowered scrap
boxes as Open Source diskless xterminals.
> I want a OS based on a good text/GUI model that can pipe as well.
Conceptually how would you pipe a GUI ? and since
most anything a Unix guy types more than once becomes an
automated script, how would you script with a gui ?
And if you managed to figure a concept would it be superior
to what you are replacing ?
( this last question is why it hasn't been done, because it a BAD
idea, it does not survive scrutiny, the idea wilts and turns
putrid in the brain the more it chews on it )
> If I run a 80x24 text screen I want the same development and user
> interface as 640x480 graphic screen.
This is still as oxymoronic as the last time, im not getting your
meaning here, we have been over fonts, so perhaps you are talking
about something like twin
Twin is a text-mode window environment.
It turns a text terminal into a X11-style display
with window manager, terminal windows, and
can also serve as display for remote applications.
http://linuz.sns.it/~max/twin
> I want peripherals open source hardware so I can talk to
> other machines or print or display with out being outdated by
> every other upgrade.
vmaout:~# uname -a
Linux vmaout 1.2.13 #8 Tue Mar 12 02:41:18 CST 2002 i686
vmaout:~# ls -l /bin/bash
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root bin 295940 Feb 14 1995 /bin/bash
vmaout:~# ldd /bin/bash
libc.so.4 (DLL Jump 4.5pl26) => /lib/libc.so.4.6.27
This machine here is running a 1995 flavor of linux
kernel 1.2.13, libc4 and a.out format binaries
As linux goes, its really "obsolete" but its rock stable
and plays totally nice with all the others and will
run sweetly in a very small footprint, perfect for
that old laptop with that old 386sx cpu.
My old 20MHz mips 3k Sony News laptop, both ways,
apps or file system, networks perfectly with all
the rest of the stuff both modern and not so modern
The old sony and its old 1991 OS is very old, and there
have been up to 11 years of "upgrades" since what its
running was installed.
all around on the systems surrounding it depending on age,
are various snapshots of history and yet, just like the 1995
linux it is still seemless with the modern stuff, i use it as a
coffee table xserver for the other boxes when i want to sit
out there instead off in here,
I share your Open Hardware preference, if not open
then fully documented interfaces so that driver writing
involved less reverse engineering would certainly
help.
The proprietary nature of some hardware and lack of
open documention is certainly a cause of greif to many
on this list as we all well know.
> I want a small fast OS
Unix/Linux is certainty small, and it is certainly fast.
> that is upgradable with having to reboot
Do that all the time, only replacing the kernel needs a restart.
a gross change in the main clibrary would require a restart
unless you had the essentials compiled static.
How important is this, and are you willing to accept the
undesireable side effects of what you are wanting ?
> or re-start that can be managed by the user not somebody
> with 20 years of computer science.
Check out debian apt-get its totally automated.
Well, seems we have all the things you say are lacking
except for the bits that you need to spend a bit
more time chewing on.
The left have butchered 200 Million people in persuit
of utopia, they are guilty of the worst holocaust
the planet has ever seen.
All because the left refuse to examine the less desireable
but unavoidable side effects of the bloodstained policy
they advocate
You will find some similar gotchas in your piped scripting
gui idea, if it destroys what your attempting to improve
perhaps its a sign that it isnt an improvement.
Raymond
Received on Tue May 07 2002 - 18:30:27 BST