John,
Sellam sure doesn't speak for all of us. Just because he's being an ass,
doesn't mean we're all hostile to all chip collectors... Just the ones who
have no respect for OUR hobby, as you seem to be hostile to Sellam because he
has no respect for yours.
John Galt said:
> The Altair board I bought because it contained an Intel C8080 CPU is
> currently in my collection waiting on the day I obtain an Altair 8800 that
> does not have an original
> CPU board that I can restore back to original condition. Surprized?
>
> I've actually bid on a number of Altair 8800's on EBAY but have not won one
> yet.
>
> What would I do with an Altair 8800? I'm not sure. I would like to have
> one
> simply for it's historic value but there's no way in hell I would hang out
> with
> people like you if that's what it took to restore it to working order.
> Sellam, you
> come off as an arrogant a-hole. It's a shame that the vintage computer
> community can not find someone with a better bed side manner to promote your
> hobby.
>
> That said, I'm sure you are a brilliant dude and you probably think you are
> doing
> what's best for your hobby but I think you are going about it in the wrong
> way.
>
> Let me give you an example. "People" (lots of them), from kids doing book
> reports, to chip collectors search the net looking for information on early
> processors. What do they find? They find these threads on this forum and
> they see you as an example of the kind of people involved with vintage
> computers.
>
> Then they email me. I give them whatever info I can to help them but they
> usually end up volunteering a few comments about you. I'm sure this thread
> will generate a number
> of new emails like this over the next few months. Perhaps I should save
> them and
> post them here. Do you really want to know the kind of impression you are
> giving thousands of people interested in vintage computers? I'll be glad to
> show you. I think you might be surprized at who some of the people are and
> what
> they had to say about your previous posts.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo_at_siconic.com>
> To: <cctalk_at_classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 3:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]
>
>
> >
> > Oh no, another rant from a pseudonym.
> >
> > On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
> >
> > > I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a moment to defend my
> hobby.
> > >
> > > 1. Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their
> chips.
> > > We just don't
> > > throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some "computer
> enthusiasts".
> >
> > I don't know of any computer you can just "throw in the bottom of a
> > drawer" (unless you're talking about a Sinclair ZX81 or some handheld).
> > But even then, collectors don't throw their computers in the bottom of a
> > drawer.
> >
> > > I could not
> > > count the times that I've bought chips on EBAY auctions that were
> > > displayed
> > > loose in a coffee can from someone who had found them in grandpa's
> > > shop.
> > > Do you really think these chips are better off going in the trash
> > > than into some
> > > chip collectors collection?
> >
> > Yes, yes. We've heard your arguments before. But we aren't talking about
> > loose chips in a tin can. We're talking about pillaging working boards
> > for chips. If you're going to respond to a thread, at least respond
> > within the context (no straw men here).
> >
> > > 2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors collection it's not gone
> from
> > > the face
> > > of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future generations.
> >
> > Yes, thank you. But hopefully it didn't come out of a board that is now
> > gone from the face of the Earth. For instance, what happened to that
> > Altair CPU board you bought because you wanted the CPU?
> >
> > > 3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a vintage computer is
> like
> > > saying
> > > a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended" purpose
> than
> > > in some
> > > collectors collection.
> >
> > If that's where the chip came from then yes, it is. By removing the chip
> > from a computer it once powered or helped work, you are removing it from
> > its historical context. From a hobbyists point of view, you are taking
> > something that once worked, removing one part of it that will make it
> > unfunctioning, and then relishing the one, now non-functioning, part over
> > the whole in which it once ran.
> >
> > > 4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of money for are
> "rare"
> > > varieties
> > > of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs. C8080A.
> Vintage
> > > computer enthusiasts don't "need" an Intel C8080. In fact, you
> would
> > > probably
> > > be better off with the more common and "improved" C8080A.
> >
> > Well, chip collectors don't really "need" an Intel C8080 either, when a
> > C8080A will do quite nicely as a representative sample, right? Unless
> > you have a cereal box prize mentality and must "collect all 8!"
> >
> > > 5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts think that chip
> > > collectors are
> > > out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to get the
> chips
> > > out of
> > > them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors hang out on in the
> same
> > > areas of EBAY that you do. We know full well what rare machines
> are
> > > worth.
> > > I'll assure you, chip collectors are not breaking up old machines
> for
> > > chips.
> >
> > What happened to that Altair CPU board?
> >
> > > In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a number of vintage
> machines
> > > that have
> > > been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what they
> were.
> >
> > Examples? What happened to the chips?
> >
> > > If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your vintage
> machines
> > > in
> > > 20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on
> EBAY
> > > because of chip collectors. The reason you should be glad is
> because
> > > as the
> > > word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them
> will
> > > end up
> > > in the trash.
> >
> > You're assuming some chip collector 20-30 years down the road will be
> > willing to part with his rare C8008 that is now part of his amazing
> > collection of dead silicon. Because in all likelihood that's what it will
> > be anyway: dead.
> >
> > > that you guys have and not because of the chips in them either.
> That
> > > said,
> > > we also recognize that the chips themselves have historic value and
> > > should
> > > be preserved.
> >
> > And we do too. We're the greatest chip collectors because we have whole
> > computers full of them.
> >
> > > Many chip collectors would like to one day obtain a
> > > working vintage machine but I know more than a few who have
> abandoned
> > > this idea once they figured out that many vintage computer
> enthusiasts
> > > have such a negative view of chip collectors.
> >
> > Bullshit. You keep making this silly remark. I believe this is your
> > opinion and your opinion alone. You're not gaining any sympathy.
> >
> > > The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very people you need
> to
> > > keep your
> > > hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will try
> and
> > > entire
> > > your world from the world of chip collecting and be totally turned
> off
> > > by your
> > > attitudes toward chip collectors.
> >
> > Blah blah. Name one chip collector that has been turned off by the
> > comments on this list. Now name all the chip collectors you steered away
> > from this list because you feel we are biased against chip collectors.
> >
> > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer
> Festival
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > International Man of Intrigue and Danger
> http://www.vintage.org
> >
> > * Old computing resources for business and academia at
> www.VintageTech.com *
> >
- Dan Wright
(dtwright_at_uiuc.edu)
(
http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
Received on Sat Nov 16 2002 - 11:46:01 GMT