Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]

From: John Galt <gmphillips_at_earthlink.net>
Date: Sat Nov 16 13:17:10 2002

Man! And I thought Sellam was a hard ass.

Toth, there's no point in responding to your flames. I'm not
interested in a flame war.

But I will say this. I get emails from teenagers who collect "old"
chips (286's, 386's, 486's, etc) all the time. Some become more
serious collectors and some don't. Sometimes their collections do
get dumped in the dumpster when they go off to college.

These are not the collectors paying $500 for a rare chips. I do
try and encourage them and give them information on how to
preserve their chips and properly store them and display them.

Yes, I buy chips all the time on EBAY where the pins have turned
black because the anti-static foam they were in has "melted".

Fortunately, there's new anti-static foam out now that does not
do this. It's the same as the PVC "slips" that coins collectors
used to use. They were turning coins green. Now they have new
slips that don't do this to coins just like they now have anti-static
foam that does not melt.

I could go on and on but it's a waste of time trying to
educate someone like you.

JA - I'm trying to stay under 80 bytes but it's still
fragmenting my replies. Will see how this one
goes.

---- Original Message -----
From: "Tothwolf" <tothwolf_at_concentric.net>
To: <cctalk_at_classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Promoting Classic Computers [was Re: Chip with holes in it]


> On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, John Galt wrote:
>
> > I'm a chip collector and I would like to take a moment to defend my
> > hobby.
>
> Too bad you can't do a better job of it.
>
> > 1. Most chip collectors are very particular about protecting their
> > chips. We just don't throw them in the bottom of a drawer like some
> > "computer enthusiasts". I could not count the times that I've bought
> > chips on EBAY auctions that were displayed loose in a coffee can from
> > someone who had found them in grandpa's shop. Do you really think these
> > chips are better off going in the trash than into some chip collectors
> > collection?
>
> Ya know, I've just about had it with all the "chip collectors" and their
> myths, fairy tales, and outright lies. It seems many will say damned near
> anything to justify their "hobby". I think it is downright disgusting how
> most chip collectors are perfectly content to destroy a hard to find board
> or even a complete system in order to grab that ultra **RARE** chip to add
> to their "collection". Personally, if I were to acquire a chip collectors
> prized chip collection, I'd think nothing of testing and stocking the
> parts into my parts cabinets/inventory, ready for reuse in repairing
> another old computer. Oh, and for any "chip collectors"^Wvultures lurking
> on the list, I have a tube of NOS Intel 8008s that I bought at a very
> reasonable price, which are ready for use in a Mark-8 or other 8008 based
> computer when I get around to building one. If I ever had to part with
> them, I'd rather give them away to someone who wanted to build something
> with them instead of selling them to a "chip collector", even if they
> could fetch $100-200/ea.
>
> > 2. Once a chip ends up in a chip collectors collection it's not gone
> > from the face of the earth. It's carefully preserved for future
> > generations.
>
> Bullshit. In 3-5 years, many will likely be in a landfill somewhere. In
> the case of the younger chip collectors (the number of which seem to be
> growing at an alarming rate), their parents, not knowing what the chips
> might be worth to someone, will end up dumping the whole lot in the bin
> when the kid goes away to college and such.
>
> I also don't consider styrofoam a good way to "carefully preserve" those
> **RARE** chips. And if you think anti-static foam is any better, just you
> wait 3-5 years, and you'll see the stuff will have damaged the leads of
> the chips, due to chemicals released during the aging and decomposition of
> that foam. Aluminum foil is just as bad, as it causes a reaction with the
> copper/tin/gold leads, which leads to corrosion. The only safe ways to
> store chips long term is either in anti-static tubes (so much for those
> "display cases"), or in pc boards safely tucked away inside a system.
>
> > 3. The argument that a chip is better off inside a vintage computer is
> > like saying a coin is better off in circulation serving its "intended"
> > purpose than in some collectors collection.
>
> You just love comparing Apples to Oranges don't you? Lets see if I can
> create an analogy like yours... How about flowering plants? Are you saying
> someone would be better off having a drawer full of seed packets instead
> of a flowerbed full of flowers?
>
> > 4. Many of the chips that chip collectors pay alot of money for are
> > "rare" varieties of "common" chips. For example, an Intel C8080 vs.
> > C8080A. Vintage computer enthusiasts don't "need" an Intel C8080. In
> > fact, you would probably be better off with the more common and
> > "improved" C8080A.
>
> Ah, but what of the computer designs that make use of or work around those
> very "flaws" in the earlier chips? Those systems will not function the
> same with an "improved" chip in place of the original **RARE** part.
>
> > 5. I think that alot of vintage computer enthusiasts think that chip
> > collectors are out there busting up Altair 8800's with sledge hammers to
> > get the chips out of them. That's simply not true. Chip collectors
> > hang out on in the same areas of EBAY that you do. We know full well
> > what rare machines are worth. I'll assure you, chip collectors are not
> > breaking up old machines for chips.
>
> So what did happen to that Altair CPU board? ;)
>
> > In fact, it's just the opposite. I know a number of vintage machines
> > that have been "saved" by chip collectors because they recognized what
> > they were.
>
> Oh yeah? Since you know of a number of them, name them. I'd sure as hell
> like to know of a few "chip collectors" that have some common sense.
>
> > 6. There are FAR more chips than there are vintage computers. Without
> > chip collectors there would not be much of a market for all these chips.
> > Sure you would be able to buy an C8008 for 1$ then but... You would also
> > have people throwing the old chips in the trash because they were not
> > worth listing on EBAY.
>
> If there were far more chips than vintage computers, "chip collectors"
> would not be searching out old computer boards to steal chips from. If the
> chips were more common than the computers they make up, "chip collectors"
> would have no trouble sourcing the parts they desire for their
> "collection"... Hrm, doesn't that defeat the purpose of collecting chips,
> if they are not **RARE**?
>
> > If you really want a supply of vintage chips for your vintage machines
> > in 20-30 years then you should be glad that a C8008 brings $100 on EBAY
> > because of chip collectors. The reason you should be glad is because as
> > the word gets out that the early chips are worth money, less of them
> > will end up in the trash.
>
> I seriously doubt most "chip collections" will be around in 20-30 years,
> since most of the collectors seem to be of the younger generations, who
> will outgrow their hobby as they move on to college and such. Too bad they
> will have scavenged those **RARE** chips from an average of 3-10 computers
> first...
>
> > 7. Chips collectors will often sell chips for LESS than you would pay
> > for them from a parts distributor. Also, many distributors will not
> > sell small quantities. I have sold spare chips out of my collection to
> > vintage computer enthusiasts. Most collectors have "spares" that they
> > acquire for trading. If you need a particular chip, changes are good
> > that you can get one from a collector if you offer the collector some
> > other chip that you have several of.
>
> Again, bullshit. I bought my i8008 CPUs from a parts distributor. They
> couldn't have cared less if the chip was potentially worth $100+, as those
> chips had been in their inventory for nearly 20 years. If anything, eBay
> and "chip collectors" are the causes for driving up prices to insane
> levels. I'd be willing to bet there are number of "chip collectors" out
> there who are sitting on 100-1000+ stocks of old CPUs such as the i4004
> and i8008, that they bought off a distributor, and are waiting to sell
> them off one at a time.
>
> > 8. There's only a handful of "serious" collectors who are willing to
> > pay $500-$1000 for rare versions of early chips. Most chip collectors
> > collect 186's, 286's, 386's, 486's, etc. In otherwords, chips that
> > vintage computer enthusiasts don't really care about anyway.
>
> The serious collectors I think I'd be less worried about. Any serious
> collector who is considering paying $500-$1000 for a chip likely already
> has a fair collection of older computers, complete with some **RARE**
> chips, so they'd be less likely to scavenge a board for a part. The
> younger "chip collectors" who think nothing of pulling those **RARE**
> chips from a perfectly good board are the ones who worry me.
>
> > The only thing vintage computer enthusiasts notice is that old chips
> > routinely bring hundreds of dollars of EBAY. What you don't notice is
> > that it's the same group of a dozen collectors that are buying them.
> > If the handful of serious chip collectors were to each obtain an example
> > of every chip every made, it would not have much effect at all on the
> > ability of vintage computer enthusiasts to obtain replacement parts for
> > your machines. If you want to blame someone for the high price of
> > vintage chips, blame the people who melted down millions of them for
> > their gold content in the 80's, don't blame the handful of serious chip
> > collectors.
>
> Most chips don't have that much gold content, so your logic here is
> flawed. I think if you did some research, you'd find that many, many more
> chips were tossed into landfills than were crushed for their precious
> metal content.
>
> > 9. I agree that a functioning vintage machine is "more interesting"
> > than a chip in a display case. Most vintage chip collectors drool over
> > the vintage machines that you guys have and not because of the chips in
> > them either. That said, we also recognize that the chips themselves
> > have historic value and should be preserved. Many chip collectors would
> > like to one day obtain a working vintage machine but I know more than a
> > few who have abandoned this idea once they figured out that many vintage
> > computer enthusiasts have such a negative view of chip collectors.
>
> It seems like functional systems are typically easier to find than the
> chips that they are made of (unless the chips are scavenged).
>
> > That said, it's alot easier to get into chip collecting than vintage
> > computer collecting. Chip collecting has the potential to bring alot of
> > new faces into the world of vintage computers but unfortunately I don't
> > see that happening any time soon.
>
> Honestly, I don't see how that is. The individual chips are harder to come
> by than complete systems. I think some people get into "chip collecting"
> simply because they either don't know how to bring an old system back to
> operational condition, or simply don't care to.
>
> > What many of you old timers don't realize it that the "youngsters" that
> > came along after the 8088 naturally see computers as a collection of
> > components. Computer enthusiasts today don't buy prebuilt machines, they
> > build them from components and then constantly upgrade them. The very
> > concept of of collecting an entire machine is foreign to them because
> > their machines are constantly changing.
>
> The current generation of PC computer enthusiasts don't build systems from
> components. They build systems from boards, which are often made very
> cheaply in poor countries. If individual components and information were
> more readily available, and if the younger generation could be taught to
> see past that "upgrade or be left behind" marketing, I believe more of
> them would be building small computers made from lightweight CPUs and
> logic chips.
>
> > That said, many of these types already have chip collections, their
> > collections are old CPU's they saved when they upgraded their machines
> > over the years. You bring up chip collecting and they say that's pretty
> > cool, I already have a small collection.
>
> Again, due to that "upgrade or be left behind" brainwashing...
>
> > The same younger computer enthusiasts are the very people you need to
> > keep your hobby going but the sad thing is, many of the same people will
> > try and entire your world from the world of chip collecting and be
> > totally turned off by your attitudes toward chip collectors.
>
> What classic computing needs is a new generation of hardware hackers and
> tinkers, not "chip collectors". A true hardware hacker or tinker will
> understand the value of an older computer, whereas most chips collectors
> do not.
>
> BTW, learn to format your emails.
>
> -Toth
>
Received on Sat Nov 16 2002 - 13:17:10 GMT