[followup text throughout document]
On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, tiborj wrote:
> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote:
> >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a
> >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full
> >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am
> >
> >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM,
> >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to
> >classic computers. Let's go through your points.
> >
> What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do
> with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have
> faster and better?
>
I don't think there's a single person on this list who hasn't used
a modern PC, with or without Microsoft Software. As for UNIX
implemetations on the PC, I certainly remember XENIX running on a 286 many
years back. Mini Linux currently runs at about .02 bogomips on an XT.
The biggest advance in PC architecture isn't the cheap Memory, cheap high
res cards, and cheap VLSI specialty chips... it was the 386 with
functional memory protection. Big deal. That said, a 386 these days is
usually about as cheap as a 'classic' 8 bit machine - mostly because at a
certain point a computer just can't *get* any cheaper - and will run Linux
or *BSD wonderfully. Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based
hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk
hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a
personal preferance.
Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and
running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to other
old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100
based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is
*lots* of machine specific code in the mini Linux implementation. It
would be a good deal more than just getting the boot loader up and running
then tweaking and compiling the kernel. Still it might be a fun hack! I
have a friend who's attempting a 3b2 Linux port single handedly... why not
the Color Computer with it's fairly powerful 6809?
> >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get
> >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want
> >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets).
> >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find
>
> well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see
> it when you need it.
>
> >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell,
> >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most
> >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an
> >SVGA card + monitor.
>
> SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and
> I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good...
> also I would like to clarify somthing. I am not a billy gates follower. I
> despise his efforts and his software. and winsucks 95 is a laugh!!<G> but
> the issue is machines, and if you run Linux, as I do, that pentium will
> spring to life! so the PC is not the greatest machine, but if you run
> software that was properly written, (i.e. not from microsuck) you get
> fantastic results, that is why I like my commodore 64, it can do alot on 1 MHZ.
Yes yes yes yes. SVGA is a *TOY* compared to what was available
to those with million dollar budgets 20 years ago. The old hardware ran
slower in clock speed but was most certainly capable of *extream* high
resolution. I don't expect 2048 x 2048 displays for a few years yet on
PC's, but if you were the military with a money is no object budget in
1975, you better believe such hardware was available.
I like my PC just fine as well, and won't argue about processor
capability, RAM requirements, and the like in comparison to a TRS-80 MOdel
1 for instance. However, the majority of software titiles around today are
offshoots of software commonly available back then.... Visicalc and
Wordstar are but two examples. And yes, freeware UNIX implmentations are
about the most exciting thing happening on the PC today from a hobbyist
hacker standpoint. The wonderful thing about Linux and NetBSD is the wide
architecture support, not just the fact that serious development tools are
now available for free on the PC. They are *also* availble to Atari ST
fans, Amiga fans, old Macintosh hardware, Sun3 hardware, cheap Sparc and
Alpha platforms... and like I suggested before, I wouldn't doubt for a
minute the possibility of newer ports to classic PDP, VAX, Apollo, PRIME,
and 8 bit machines. There is just so much usable hardware out there
waiting for a modern OS....
[snip - re: games]
Game designers have strongly benefitted from higher processor
speeds and cheap RAM. Look at game consols like Nintendo 64 and Sega...
they display about the same 320x200 pixel resolution, but have a much
larger color pallete and much faster display hardware. The games look
great! It's not surprising that newer PC and Mac hardware would also
benefit from their advances.
>
> >'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem
> >at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as
> >well.
> well we all believe, but sadly, this does not always work that way. I have
> an XT too, and yes you can load a packet driver, but then 640K is not big
> enough except to run telnet or ftp from. I use my XT as a file server...
>
[snip]
> to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the
> fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :)
>
PDP-11 hardware is still widely available. You could build
youself a functinal Qbus LSI-11/73 or 83 for less than $500 easy. Most of
this hardware is sitting in old factories and still in production. There
are many hardware outlets out there such as ELI in cambridge MA, which
support and provide access to this old stuff... I would attempt to buy a
non functional machine (or functional if possible) from some company about
to toss it, and then upgrade from some used MINI supplier. Expect a lower
heating bill and a *MUCH* higher electric bill if this is in the plans...
;-) You might also want to think of a decent used microVAX.... wonderful
machine based on the same Qbus.
[snip - 486's are cheap]
Yup, can't argue with that.
J. Maynard Gelinas
Received on Sat Jun 28 1997 - 12:24:35 BST
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