On Tuesday 23 April 2002 11:26, you wrote:
> It just proves that they have problems picking a healthy government
> system. That is not to say as a people the don't have their good
> and bad points otherwise. I live in Canada so I tend to feel middle
> road.
There is no middle, there is freedom or slavery, and those that dont
know or dont care.
> The US governmental system has its good and bad points too. A government
> ruled by $$$ is just as bad as other power hungry groups.
Ruled by the thirst for power, something that having worthless money
( USSR ) did not avoid.
The only real solution for keeping evil in check is to limit the power
it might weild over you.
> Myself I think religion and power of kings and governments have caused
> a lot of wasted death. Yes there is great evil out there. Evil -- the
> act of causing senseless pain and suffering. Stupidly --
> causing senseless pain and suffering to your self.
Perfection dont exist, there is only the least of the worst, that
sucks the least.
Again, if murder by goverment was the measure of good and bad,
nothing is even in the same galaxy with the crimes of the left,
all else pales into insignificance.
The left never avoid this evil because changing the policy and idology
that caused it to happen requires admitting the wrongness of everything
their dogma is based upon.
Mass murder isnt part of the sales pitch for socialism, it simply their
most infamous and intractible unintended side effect.
> I have just read a good quote but I just can't remember it something
> like.The power of government is only from the sharing of individual
> freedoms for the common cause.
Again this is marxist, the will of the majority is the base of power
for every tyrant that leads them and manufactures that will
with charisma. the tyranny of the mob is the most important
thing the individual needs to be protected against
Hitler was elected, democracy with the unchecked will of the mob
lead by a tyrant.
> > Its why america remains the powerhouse that it is,
> > we are more powerfull because we have more freedom
>
> Funny I thought was the USA tries harder to be free!
> I like adult computer games ( I don't like porn ) but there is
> little freedom to get the games in America from Japan. Funny
> I can get a dumb game in breakfast cereal.
But all these tennats are marxist, the goverment has no business
having this authority, weilded by marxocrats with feel good
schemes or moral busy bodies imposing their morality on
everyone is one and the same evil.
> > All goverments that follow the leftist model are known for famine
> > mass murder and dispair or are following the same path
> > as the poor fools that went before them.
>
> With good governments you got a chance to kick out the real stupid
> ones before they get to power.
Hardly, from the ussr to china to hitler, you target and demonize
a scapegoat or your opposition, and with public approval you
can then butcher them.
Again, without protection of the individual against the desire
and demands of the mob, .....
> > Unix is a great system because of the same freedom, it does
> > not dictate the language you use or the look or feel of the
> > interface, the X11 primatives push look and feel into
> > userspace.
>
> I like open source -- but linux is not the only computer OS.
I said Unix not linux. even tho i would group Linux as a unix
For me, UNIX95 complaince or the content of USL code in the
kernel means nothing to me for this definition.
If this original unix
http://www.nop.org/misc/unix/1972
( well the most original code known to exist anyway )
was the definition of what unix is .. well linux and the bsd's
certainly include everything there, and do things the same
way. well thats enough of a defintion for me what is a unix and
what isnt.
> > Dont like Gnome or Kde ? Windomaker is my fav,
> > there are dozens of desktops that look like riscos or macos or
> > plan9 or .. the choice is all up to the user, Freedom !
>
> And they all look like 95 to me. I use debian linux ... Red hat has
> too much political -- me is right and I am the only way --
> Also debian is the only version you can upgrade with a modem.
Im a slackware fan myself, and they can all be upgraded over
a modem, slackware is also trivial, with the bsds a bit more
work and time ( or so to me it seems ) but still not all that
painfull.
> > Then i dont see what your complaint was here then ..
> It hard to find a 3 button mouse!
Hehehe ... ok I surrender on this one.
> > Much of their stuff seems wrapped around the same socialist
> > mindset that butchered 200 Million people.
>
> I can't see how you can get a socialist mind set from reading
> "mother earth news". In many cases they have a strong sense of
> community and barter a lot. It is their choice not to use money.
> A little profit is good, too much is greed.
And who decides how much is too much ?
Even the robber barrons came nowhere close to the pain
and suffring at the hands of the egalitarians, nothing comes
close and hopefully, Cuba, N Korea, and China and such are the
last of the terror states.
> > But because leftist are not focused on the greatest tax income but
> > in bloodstained marxist egalitarianism the misery industry and utopian
> > dreamer feelgood schemes the potental and treasure of our people
> > has been wasted, we could have been a lot farther along, but
> > we have blown it on social engineering, small sips of the same
> > egalitarian poison that has butchered so many after they fell
> > into the whole leftist program.
>
> Let blame specific events and people, not go on witch hunt with
> blanket statments.
The blanket is right on point, todays leftist program is identical
to taking Hitlers old documents and transcribing them onto new
letter head.
Its the same 1930's egalitarian crap, but with all new scapegoats
and new logos.
> > This is more brainwashing
> > Capitalism has no holocaust to its discredit
>
> That is the most brainwashing statement ever on the grounds that it
> claims to be perfect and true and with out fault.
Perfection exists nowwhere, but the lack of perfection does not
infer the opposing idologies have equality
One system degrades to mass murder for "the good of society"
and is responsible for the worst holocausts ever seen on planet
earth.
The other has a history of freedom and prosperity never before
seen on earth.
In the free world today, the majority enjoy an existence that was
beyond the dreams of kings not so long ago.
> > Even bill gates has never machined gunned people into
> > a fresh dug ditch.
>
> But would bill gates sell guns if that made more money for him?
Sure ! free people posses the tools to revolt against the
goverment as a check against goverment power.
That is what our 2nd amendment is all about
These are some of my Favs ...
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The
strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep
and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves
against tyranny in government"
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere
restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor
with all that's good" -- George Washington
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is
that they be properly armed."
-- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India,
history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation
of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi
The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden
to have in their possession any swords, short swords, bows,
spears, firearms, or other types of arms. The possession
of unnecessary implements makes difficult the collection
of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings.
-- Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Shogun, August 1588
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people
who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing
government, they can exercise their constitutional right
of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember
it or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861
"One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish
their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the
people, and making it an offense to keep arms."
-- Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840
"The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which
the individual asserts both his social power and his
participation in politics as a responsible moral being..."
-- J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.
"As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this
gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness,
enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with
the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the
body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun,
therefore, be the constant companion to your walks."
-- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew.
"Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like
cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!'
in a crowded theater." -- Peter Venetoklis
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not
only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the
preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily
life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice
for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy
The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly
been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic;
since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and
arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these
are successful in the first instance, enable the people to
resist and triumph over them."
-- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
-- (Lucius Annaeus) Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD),
No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people.
The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman
and a slave. -- Political Disquisitions -1775
& what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are
not warned from time to time that his people preserve the
spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect
every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing
will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give
up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
-- Patrick Henry, June 5 1788
Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing
degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our
own defence? Where is the difference between having our
arms in our own possession and under our own direction,
and having them under the management of Congress? If our
defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose
hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal
safety to us, as in our own hands?
-- Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788
"To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual
way to enslave them." -- George Mason, June 14, 1788
"The great object is, that every man be armed. [...] Every
one who is able may have a gun." -- Patrick Henry, June 14 1788
That the said Constitution shall never be construed to
authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the
press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people
of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping
their own arms... -- Samuel Adams, in "Phila. Independent
Gazetteer", August 20, 1789
The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only
to the *government*, not to *society*; and as long as they
have nothing to revenge in the government (which they cannot
have while it is in their own hands) there are many advantages
in their being accustomed to the use of arms, and no possible
disadvantage. ..... [The disarming of citizens] has a double effect,
it palsies the hand and brutalizes the mind: a habitual disuse of
physical forces totally destroys the moral [force]; and men
lose at once the power of protecting themselves, and of
discerning the cause of their oppression.
-- Joel Barlow, "Advice to the Privileged Orders", 1792-93
Every Communist must grasp the truth, 'Political power grows
out of the barrel of a gun.' -- Mao Tse-tung, 1938
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be
to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms.
History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their
subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall
by doing so. -- Hitler, April 11 1942
The right to buy weapons is the right to be free.
-- A.E. Van Vogt, "The Weapon Shops Of Isher", ASF December 1942
Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any
government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right
of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of
the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against
arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a
tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which
historically has proved to be always possible.
-- Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960
No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to
the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in
crime was very much less when there were no controls of any
sort and when anyone, convicted criminal or lunatic, could
buy any type of firearm without restriction. Half a century
of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a
far greater use of this weapon in crime than ever before.
-- Colin Greenwood, "Firearms Control", 1972
Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget
what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights:
An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and
the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the
government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police,
the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government
-- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws."
-- Edward Abbey, "Abbey's Road", 1979
The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept,
and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of
the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major
commentator and court in the first half-century after its
ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual
right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful
manner.
-- Report of the Subcommittee On The Constitution of the Committee On
The Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, second session
(February, 1982), SuDoc# Y4.J 89/2: Ar 5/5
In recent years it has been suggested that the Second Amendment
protects the "collective" right of states to maintain militias,
while it does not protect the right of "the people" to keep and
bear arms. If anyone entertained this notion in the period during
which the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were debated and
ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of
the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the
period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis.
-- Stephen P. Halbrook
To make inexpensive guns impossible to get is to say that
you're putting a money test on getting a gun. It's racism
in its worst form.
-- Roy Innis, president of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), 1988
Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons.
If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power.
-- Yoshimi Ishikawa
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect
every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing
will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up
that force, you are inevitably ruined."
-- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and
it never will. Find out just what people will submit to,
and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and
wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will
continue until they are resisted with either words or blows,
or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the
endurance of those whom they oppress. -- Frederick Douglass
> > I would say that perhaps sim earth, is a bit faulty, for example
> > if penetubo errupted on sim earth, ( it let go of more CO/2
> > and SO/2 than all of mans activity in his entire history on earth )
> > then their model is programmed to show enviromental disaster
> The model may be wrong but the point that humanity is affecting
> the envornment is not!
Depends on what effects you are pointing at
One lone volcano certainly showed the Koyoto supporters to be totaly
wrong.
> > On earth ... a volcano can belch an amount of CO/2 that makes
> > all the oil burned on earth at one time insignificant, and the only
> > thing that happens is faster plant growth and in 2 years several
> > mankind history of total possible oil burnings worth of CO2 is
> > gone and the envirowacko climate catastrophe left to be nothing
> > but their usual hairbrained nonreasoned nattering nabob effuent.
> Got figures???
Sure ! shove the name in google, the data is all over the net.
Some of the commentary is quite entertaining
" the world's leading scientists said that the ozone depletion was a hoax.
He noted if it were true then the eruption of Mount Penetubo [ That has
] spouted more chlorine into the air then humans ever could. ""
" One of the ironic conclusions to emerge from the study of
global warming is that sulfur dioxide actually cools the earth
by blocking sunlight. (This effect was evident globally in the early
1990's when Mount Penetubo erupted in the Philippines, producing
lots of SO2, and leading to a couple of cooler than usual years.) "
Pre-Eruption Vapor in Magma of the Climactic Mount Pinatubo Eruption:
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Projects/Emissions/Reports/Pinatubo/pinatubo_abs.html
"" contained a minimum of approximately 96 Mt H2O, 42 Mt CO2, and 3 Mt
Cl, in addition to 17 Mt of SO2. "
" Thus, the minimum volatile emissions for the climactic eruption--from
preeruption vapor phase and degassing of melt--were 17 Mt SO2, 42 Mt
CO2, 3 Mt Cl, and 491 Mt H2O. "
> > the next problem would be controling plant growth so that it didnt
> > suck out all the CO/2 before you could populate it with lots of us
> > nasty humans burning oil to feed the plants to keep it out of
> > slipping back to its ice age
>
> Some people figure that happened about 680,000,000 years ago
> and the whole earth froze over. ( the sun was less warm then )
Yes ,, Solar variation seem to be the large factor, basically making
all else insignificant ( except for asteroid impacts )
> > On earth our food production has grown along with our CO/2
> > supply, im quite convinced if it was not for mans activity
> > the earth would have gone back into its ice cube period.
>
> That man's major envormental activity has been only the last 1000
> years I don't think that is true.
this is seperate from the climate change argument, are you saying
that animals and plants are not in symboisis ?
There have been studies of plant growth in CO/2 enriched
enviroments as well as crop data, and its has been proven
that without the population and our activity belching CO/2
we could not get the quanity of food we have with the active
ariable land we have.
The data suggests that if we was to really cut CO/2 production
we would need to bring all of our farmland back online ( including
that land now occupied by housing ) to have the same quanity
of food.
Modern farming deserves equal credit for the high productivity
but the data suggest that without the CO/2 supply, well ..
> > The ice caps are already melting on mars btw, the REAL factor
> > for climate change, the sun is gasifying the mars poles a bit the
> > past couple years ( the sun is having a double peak sunspot
> > cycle )
> time will tell.
Perhaps the left will blame the cap errosion on mars on our SUV,s
as well ;=)
That the polar caps on mars is melting the same time as ours...
Just another data point helping to show the lefto science isnt
science, but just another mule for their agenda.
Raymond
Received on Tue Apr 23 2002 - 19:28:36 BST